Italian Roots and Genealogy
This podcast is dedicated to Italian Genealogy, finding your Italian Roots and how to navigate through Italian records. Your host has over 12 years of experience and we will have excellent guests that will discuss a variety of genealogy topics. Please subscribe!
Italian Roots and Genealogy
Exploring Italian Heritage and Family Tales
What if you discovered a hidden chapter in your family's history that changed the way you see yourself? This episode features Joseph Walls, whose journey into genealogy was sparked by the emotional discovery of his grandfather's experiences as a prisoner of war during World War II. We explore how this revelation led Joseph to delve into his mother's Italian heritage, uncovering the rich cultural traditions passed down through generations by his great-grandfather Nando, and how these narratives have shaped his identity.
Our conversation takes you through the intricate process of tracing Italian ancestry, highlighting the unique challenges and triumphs of researching family records in different regions of Italy. From the excitement of finding tangible pieces of history like the bronze doors at the Mission Inn to the heartbreak of lost family stories, Joseph shares personal anecdotes that underscore the importance of preserving family narratives. We discuss the value of artifacts and the urgency of recording stories from our elders before they fade away.
Lastly, we step into the world of DNA testing and the surprising revelations it can bring. Joseph recounts his experiences with DNA testing, the connections he made with distant relatives, and the unexpected branches of his family tree it uncovered. We also discuss the emotional journey of planning a family trip to Italy, the challenges of navigating Italian archives, and the complexities of obtaining dual citizenship. This episode is a heartfelt testament to the profound impact of understanding and preserving our family legacies.
Turnkey. The only thing you’ll lift are your spirits.
Hi everyone. This is Bob Sorrentino, from Italian Roots and Genealogy. Be sure to check out our blog and our newsletter and our YouTube channel and our great sponsors Gior Dolce Vita Italy, rooting Phil Italy and Abiativa Casa, and my guest today is Joseph Wall. So welcome, joe. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. So you're out there in California, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, I'm a little far away from where you're at right now in the big apple, but, um, happy to be on and and represent california. I've been listening to a lot of your shows and so you have quite a uh diverse collection of guests from all over oh thanks, yeah it's.
Speaker 1:You know, it's just been so much fun and it's just grown and grown and grown. But everybody's story is interesting to me, so my first question is usually the same one when and why did you start researching the family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the only question I'm prepared for, by the way, because I've noticed this is the one that you know will get asked and I think it's so bizarre that I find this question pretty challenging to answer, because it's very expected and I get asked it. You know a lot, given that I've been doing this for quite a while now. So I'd say it started about 20 years ago. I just turned 40 this year, so that's half my life now that's been spent, I would say, rather feverishly pursuing history, but more specifically the history of my family, my ancestors, trying to learn more. Especially as I've grown and gotten older. I've appreciated these people that have been a part of my life and who I've grown up to be, you know, these people that have been a part of my life and who I've grown up to be.
Speaker 2:So about 20 years ago it really started on my dad's side. I'd never seen a picture of my grandfather or heard much about him and then came to realize that you know, he died very young from MS. Very, very sad, you know, kind of kind of childhood that my dad had so painful to talk about. But you know, found out he was a World War II prisoner of war, you know, found this incredible album that had all this you know scrapbook saved from his time in a, you know, in a POW camp for six months and everything, and it just sparked this interest that has never really died down, and so that's kind of where I would credit the origin of genealogy in general for me and then for my Italian side, which is through my mom.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that is maybe most culturally what I've identified with as I've grown up.
Speaker 2:That's where a lot of our family's traditions, you know, have come from.
Speaker 2:And you know our cooking and you know we love to cook, and all of this really gets credited to my great-grandfather who went by Nando, and you know I was very lucky to have great-grandparents in my life, you know, for many years, and not a lot of people, you know, unfortunately, have that, that luxury, and I know that I've. I've heard from many, including yourself, you know, that feeling of regret that you couldn't go back with the knowledge you have now, you know, to have those conversations you wish you could. So this is my way of doing that, you know, is taking all these stories and rumors that I've heard growing up and trying to add body to them, you know, and bring them back, preserve them, you know, protect and pass them on to my family. You know I have a family now I've got three kids, so it's even more present in my mind that hopefully, what I'm doing is going to have value well beyond when I'm no longer here is going to have value well beyond when I'm no longer here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's so great to be able to connect with great-grandparents. I mean, in my case, most of my grandparents were older, so I knew them a little bit, and the great-grandparents were in Italy, so nothing happened in there. So I'm intrigued about your dad now.
Speaker 2:Where did he get captured in World War II? So on my dad's side he enlisted very young. This is up in for where he enlisted. He was in Washington. My dad was born in Bremerton, which is just across the Kitsap Peninsula from Seattle, in that area. So he enlisted and I've got those photos of him as a young soldier and he just looked so young, you know, got this baby face, you know, and everything. And he ends up getting attached to the 104th Division Infantry for the Army. And he ends up getting attached to the 104th Division infantry for the Army and he goes over as a replacement rifleman during World War II and sees several countries during the European theater and eventually gets captured Thanksgiving Day in Germany.
Speaker 2:So there was a hill that they were engaged in an offensive on. Their unit gets split and then around 70 to 80, you know men get captured and he's held for about six months in a POW camp. They moved around. You know they had the Germans had these Stalags everywhere and you know you had kind of a main processing. You know Stalag, they'd move out, you know, and they would be in labor camps. You know you had kind of a main processing. You know styling, they move out, you know, and they were being labor camps, you know, in these other more remote areas. So he was there for about six months and, um, you know, it's just incredible things you can find as, after you get, you have some confidence in the information you know to know where to look.
Speaker 2:There was another soldier part of that big group named Charlie Duke and he wrote a book called Good Morning, but the Nightmares Never End, and it was about his entire experience and it really added a lot of incredible detail to what happened to those men, you know, when they, from the time they got captured, all the way through, you know, going, you know, into these camps and kind of things, conditions that they had to endure. You know, I found in this scrapbook there's a single piece of very, very crumpled up, you know, tattered paper and it's he's. My grandfather had written out a menu for every day of the week and it's just things he dreamt of being able to eat, you know, whenever he made it out of there. So, yeah, that was pretty impactful. You know, just learning a lot about that. I'm still learning about it. You know, the National Archives unfortunately suffered a big fire in the 70s and so many service records have been lost or destroyed. So that's an ongoing effort to kind of reconstruct the full military history from my grandfather.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I'm sure. And yeah, at first I thought it was your father, but now I realize it could have been your father.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, sorry about that, but uh, you know, I, I, my uh ex-wife's father was um, he, he fought in europe and, you know, fought his way through france and germany, and you know he, he didn't get captured or anything like that, but you know, some of his stories were really incredible, you know, like, like uh, he told me one night it was christmas so probably probably just right after your grandfather got captured and he said, you know, we were so close to the germans that we could hear them singing the christmas carols in german. You know, uh, so it's like wow, and and you know I, I guess back then they kind of had a little bit of a you know low for a day, um, with that um, so now your mom's family's from italy. Where in italy did they come from?
Speaker 2:so now this is through my, my mom, this is my great-grandfather. So this is another, I think, area where I I'm so envious of a lot of your guests, you know, or yourself you know, you have a more, this direct connection it feels like you know to Italy. And you know, I like to think it's more complicated than that. The identity we, we attach, you know ourselves, to. For me, because of how I grew up with that, being so influential my great-grandfather and bringing that kind of culture and everything, that's why I feel so, I guess, strongly tied to all of this. But that's who it is. So my mom's mother, my grandmother I call her Nani, she lives up the street from me. Still she's in her early 90s and this is her father that I'm connected through my great-grandfather.
Speaker 2:So he was born on the East Coast in Milford in 1910. And it was his father, so my second great-grandfather, who was born in Italy, and up until recently I didn't have absolute confidence on where exactly that was in Italy. I knew kind of generally it was Northern Italy, you know, and unfortunately so much of this stuff gets lost. There's not somebody there to pass this stuff on and this was kind of pre-ancestrycom or things like that? Where had that been around? I'm confident that my great-grandfather would have, you know, been using that and I'd have all this great information to start from.
Speaker 2:But I found in in my uh, my nanny's house. There's a box hidden, you know, and years ago when I went digging everywhere I could find these things. There was a baptismal certificate. It was a reproduction and I learned later it was from when my great-grandfather had, in the 70s, gone over to Italy, so they went over there and visited several of these towns that the family came from. So the commune is called Pescantina, it's in northern, in Verona, and so if you think of the boot, it's right there, at the top of the boot, near this body of water, lake Garda. And so as soon as I found that, I had a location at least. So that was very, very helpful, you know, to lead to more discovery later.
Speaker 1:Yeah'm sure I know. So I I have to say this because my daughter we're hoping to go next year. My daughter just sent me, uh, uh, a post from a theme park in italy near lake garda.
Speaker 2:So, yes, isn't that weird I saw the advertisements when we were there.
Speaker 1:Forget the name of it, but yeah, yeah, I think it's like a lego land or something like that, but she's into all of that, all of that stuff. That's just, that's just so funny. Uh, so, uh, so that, so. So then it was your second great-grandfather in, so he came pretty early then, yeah he did?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he did, and you know. Again, I say it, it just kills me that I this was all discovered much later. You know, I wish so much I could have learned these things, you know, sooner, because who knows, you know. But but really much of what I was learning about discovering it was really all during the family's time in America, which goes back quite a ways, you know, because they came in 1890, you know that was, that was when they came, and it was, you know, my great grandfather. It was both his mother and father, both born in Italy and in different areas, but both in northern Italy, and you know, then they met in Milford and, uh, you know, then he was born in, like I said, 1910.
Speaker 2:So a lot of what I have is, has, has really I've I've kind of exhausted in my mind. I'm getting close to exhausting all of the things I can gather and learn as far as a genealogist, the records you would hope to get, you know, here in America you know I'm gone, I'm hunting down the more obscure, uh, you know, key files through the, you know, naturalization, immigration offices and things like that. So that was, that was really what I had to go off of before I I didn't know how at the time I was going to make that leap across the ocean because, as, as has been pointed out before, there's this wonderful resource, the Antonati, you know the, but it's the civil records that are. There's a limitation that a lot of people don't maybeati, you know, but it's the civil records that are. There's a limitation that a lot of people don't maybe understand, you know, to really get further back, you got to.
Speaker 2:You got to a lot of times be there in person, but they got to be. They're in those parishes, the local parishes, you know, in the church records. So I was coming up with nothing. When I would look on Antonati, you know there was nothing for those areas, those towns. So I was coming up with nothing. When I would look on Antonotti, you know there was nothing for those areas, those towns that I was looking for. So that was a bit discouraging. You know that up until maybe last year, the only Italian record I had was that reproduction of the baptismal certificate.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and you know, Southern Italy, at least the Antonati goes back to, I think it's 1809 or 1806. But in Northern Italy it doesn't even go back that far, because the Austrians, I think, still had Northern Italy at that point in time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have this brief period, for some of them kind of on the early 1800s, and then it disappears and comes back, you know, after the unification so, and since then, you know, having more information. I've, you know, found certain records you know, or for my own situation, because I know again, a lot of seems like you know, a lot of your guests have this incredible kind of recent history or connection. I'm looking at, you know, mostly the death records as a source of information because you know those ancestors would have been born before the birth records available through civil records. So yeah, that's kind of been how I've been utilizing that record set.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it really is a detective type of job. So do you know what kind of businesses they worked in in Connecticut and then do you know why they came out west?
Speaker 2:So, so the family, it was Milford, massachusetts actually. Yeah, not too far, you know. They came in, the port of entry was New York, like for many. And then in Milford there's, as I found, like there is, a community of mostly northern Italians, it seemed, like, you know. And while there, the family business, originally.
Speaker 2:So my original ancestor who came over, was actually my second great grandfather's father, that whole birds of passage, you know. He comes over in the 1890s and he's an innkeeper and a baker and he sets up shop in Milford with another baker named Leopoldo Castiglione, and they're operating this boarding house and bakery and then, quite tragically, he ends up dying suddenly because of the explosion of a kerosene lamp, of a kerosene lamp. So I've got these news accounts that are talking about how this kerosene lamp explodes, ignites the bedding. He wraps it all up and runs outside, you know, to save the structure and then ends up dying from the wounds that he you know gets, you know, probably inhaling, you know, like the inhalation burns. So he dies and at the same time his family had already been sent for. So his wife and three living kids are on their way over, and one of those children is my second great grandfather. So that's the beginning. You know it's very tragic. So she gets over to Milford, of course, then finds out her husband has died and she's a widow in this strange place with three kids. So later directories have her attached to that boarding house and then within a very short amount of time she marries another widow named Bernardo Castellini, and he had one living daughter who also came over on her own later. And so they're living together in the 1900 census, together in the 1900 census, and his daughter and her son end up marrying, which was not wholly uncommon at the time. You know they're step siblings, you know they're a little older, you know at the time that their parents then are getting together. But that's, that would be my second great grandfather and grandmother, you know, and how they met and everything.
Speaker 2:And then my second great-grandfather. The business from then on was he became a foundryman and he worked in several areas, you know, along the East Coast, and then, when they eventually made their way to the West Coast in the late 20s, he opened up a foundry in Riverside California. He opened up a foundry in Riverside California and then several of his sons worked in the foundry. So my great-grandfather ends up opening his own foundry ends up being very successful with it. It's in Redondo Beach and he cast know the Marine application during the war.
Speaker 2:You know he, he had military contracts. He's, he's got, you know, casting kind of all over and that's been, that's been fun to discover. You know through my relatives, oh, did you know the bells over here? You know we think those are something that you know your great grandfather made or something. So, um yeah, I would say the foundry in our more recent history was the most impactful, uh, you know professionally. You know, uh, of what the family did. And then even back in italy, um yeah, bakers, innkeepers, more kind of more modest, you know professions.
Speaker 1:Well, it's great to be able to piece all of that together and, you know, even back in Italy, to have, you know, to be a baker or, you know, have some kind of trade or something like that. Well, that was pretty good, you know, because it was basically an agricultural know country way, way, way back then. Um, but yeah, that's cool to be able to piece that all together and then they get some insight into where some of these things, uh, may be. Um, have you been able to get your hands on anything that from the foundry from the 20s?
Speaker 2:you know what? Yes, and it's only only a little bit.
Speaker 2:But again, I live close to where all these things were. So one of the things I love doing is incorporating travel, any excuse to travel, with some connection to that place. So if I hear of a possibility that oh yeah, there's something here, you know I'm making the trip. So there's an historic hotel in Riverside called the Mission Inn. It's wonderful if you ever find yourself in that area. But there are these magnificent bronze doors. You know they've got these bronze panels on them and I think I sent you an image that has my great grandfather standing next to them. And then, you know, not several years ago, there's, you know I had to stand in the same place and the panels depict the life of St Francis of Assisi. You know, who could commune with animals, you know. And so you see all these just beautiful, you know, panels that are all showing a scene of the life of St Francis. And then it's rumored that one of the bells there because they have this vast collection of these bells that possibly one or more originated from their foundry. But other than that, I mean, it's really all over.
Speaker 2:Sadly, when he passed away, everybody got an opportunity to go through their, you know, the house and at his house I always remembered growing up. You know these things that caught my attention, you know, and you know he had a bell there, you know the name, and he had this really intricate Aztec calendar, you know, mounted there. So I know those came from the foundry. And then what was really interesting is in this garage, you know there were the molds. You know they did mostly sand casting. You know where they leave the imprints and you know pour it in.
Speaker 2:But I found molds in there. I found even on paper where they would draw out designs for whether it's a gate or some custom project. I found newspaper articles that show one of his children this would have been a brother to my great-grandfather pouring the molten metal out of the crucible. And then it kills me to remember this, but my nanny had from his house, when the foundry he sold or no longer was in business, he took two of these crucibles and drilled a hole through it and then used it as a pot and a gardener or somebody cleaning out her house. They end up getting thrown away and it just kills me, you know, because I I would love to have that, you know, as a, as a piece, you know, in the garden, some connection you know to you know there's such a story behind it. Yeah, that's yeah, a lot of different, a lot of different things.
Speaker 1:That's a great piece of history for sure, and to you know to have the photos and things like that. I I have a picture of my, my grandfather and his brother owned a uh, bridal embroidery shop in new york city and we have picture of my grandfather's not in it, but his brother and my uncle are in the photo from, I have to think, probably around 1920, 22, somewhere around that. Then I also have that I got from my cousin's grandmother who saved them beads from the shop which you know.
Speaker 2:This woman apparently kept everything and linda had, you know, bags of beads so she brought us some so bless those, uh, bless those people who you know, know that there's a value there yeah, and I had.
Speaker 1:You know, there's one cousin in Italy and there were actually two, one, both from the same side of the family. But one cousin said that one of her uncles had all the history from the family and had artifacts and then he passed away and everything got lost. And then my dad's half first cousin was actually younger than me. Um, his, uh, he had said his father was like he wasn't, uh, he was married into the family but he knew the whole history of the piramalo family going back and he passed away just before. Um, but you know, it's, it's it. It makes me nuts and at least now people are starting to do and record it. But you know, when people ask me, I say sit down and have an interview. You know, we have, we have the, the ability now to record anything with sound, you know.
Speaker 2:So if you have an aunt or an uncle or grandmother in their 90s and they remember that this stuff, you know, sit down and get it all on tape oh, yeah, one of the things I've tried to be good at remembering to do is uh, kind of bully my relatives into, you know, if I can corner them, you know, and try to plead, you know. Hey, you know I'd love hearing these stories. You know it, sometimes I can't pull my phone out quick enough and open up voice memos just to get a recording, and I'll deal with it later. You know, I'll try to transcribe or something later.
Speaker 2:But much of you know I've been doing this 20 years and I wish I was more organized with it. You know, because I always think of oh, it would be great if I had been better at doing this, you know. But, like you say, anything that you do is better than not having it at all and uh, I hope that, yeah, more people uh have the thought. You know, the presence of the moment to think, man, you know, I, I hope that, uh, others can hear this. You know these stories, you know, and it doesn't get forgotten about well, and that's what makes me nuts.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, my, my father's father died when I was only two months old and my and his mother died when I was, I guess, about 10 or so. But my, my, my mother's mother, you know, I guess she. I was 19 or 20 when she passed away and when I was a kid 12, 13, 10, whatever I used to play cards with her all afternoon and I never, you know what. Who knows to think of that when you're 10 years old, to ask your grandmother what was it like in italy?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, nope, same I was again, this would be my great-grandparents, but I think of the questions I could have asked, you know we had, I think, the thing that is so so another part of why I enjoy, you know, doing this, you know you mentioned a lot of times it comes up as, oh, you kind of get this opportunity to feel like a detective and and what you are investigating is so personal, so, on many layers, it's somewhat nice to have to not have all the answers, because when you have something that's challenging, the reward is just feels so much greater.
Speaker 2:I think when you're able to really uncover, you know, the last piece of this puzzle and give answers you know to, to people who know these stories still, um, that's been one of the things I really enjoy doing. Is you hear these, you hear these stories and you know that it's it's not, it's a partial truth, you know, or there's more to find out. And I and that's one of the things I enjoy doing is is, you know, trying to, trying to, you know, support or reveal the whole story with records and evidence and kind of I would call them just good standard genealogical practices.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean now how you've done dna, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, quite extensively. I think I managed maybe seven or eight tests and we, you know, across all the major testing agencies. You know, I think that it's an incredible tool to leverage. You know, these days and again, very challenging facet of genealogy, but I think it's essential, you know, to incorporate it if you want more answers. And it's come up a lot.
Speaker 2:Italy, you know, in Europe in general it's more challenging because just it's not as popular, but you know there's still. But you know there's still, especially in my case, because you know there's so much time here just in America, but I've still been able to before. You know, myheritage is the, I think, the best website so far for, you know, dna test takers outside of America and I've been able to connect with a test taker from Italy through the DNA from my great or my grandmother, cause she, you know was, was willing, you know, to to let me, you know, have her do that through through ancestry ancestry, and then I had uploaded to my heritage and, yeah, and that's been, that's been neat. You know, it's going so far back and in italy and still being able to make that connection. So I think dna is is great yeah, no, no, no, me too.
Speaker 1:um, did you find anything that like blew you like, wow, I didn't know that, or any distant cousins or anything like that that you found interesting? Yeah?
Speaker 2:So not on the Italian side, but yes, the, you know, in general in doing DNA it's, you know it can be this Pandora's box, you know they always there's always an asterisk with it. You know, hey, you do DNA be prepared, you know. But yeah, so my wife, we'd always known that she had another, you know, sibling and you know that was discovered and made that connection and went down, that you know. And then becoming a part of a DNA project. You know, my, my dad. So this would be the, the, the walls and and everything going back. There's a whole DNA project for that that we're now belong to. He's taken the big Y family tree dna and that's exciting.
Speaker 2:But I would say currently the most uh, infuriating and exciting uh project that's ongoing is, uh, my mom's father, who I was very close with growing up. You know this is the husband to my nonny and he I knew his father had died when he was maybe 10. But he's this big mystery and didn't know anything about his parents and in 20 years he just drops off the record. You know, and I've in the in 20 years he just drops off the records, you know, and I've tried everything and I had his DNA and so through that I think I've got maybe around 20 tests all collected together to a most recent common ancestor set and the surnames are entirely different. So it's exciting because know his parents are inserted into this. You know now rather large tree of DNA matches and it's just figuring out where. But it's leading into new territory that I don't think you know anybody who's here now was ever aware of.
Speaker 1:So that's that's exciting. Yeah, that's that's really interesting. And it keeps the detective work going, I suppose. Right, yeah, yes, now you've been back to Italy, or not?
Speaker 2:I'm so excited to say we have. I never thought I'd be able to say that we'd been able to go to Italy. It started maybe three, four years ago and then really slowed down because of COVID but gave us time to save up. So we had a couple of years to save and plan and then, kind of one day, I think I just said we're going. It really was, I think, the only way we were able to mentally shift into, you know, making it a certainty rather than, oh, it's a possibility. It was something that we needed to do in order to actually commit ourselves.
Speaker 2:And my parents, thankfully, are still part of our life and alive, and they're only a mile away from where I live now. So we brought it up to them and you know my mom was thrilled at the opportunity to go to Italy. You know they've never been. And then I have three children. You know, at the time that we went they were seven, six and four. But we said, hey, we're going to make it happen, we'll do anything we can to plan, prepare and we just started baby steps with making sure we had all our passports up to date. We did the global entry to make our lives easier with, with kids and and all that. And so we, we ended up going last year after school got out my dad's a CPA, so we had to, we had to, you know, meet everybody's schedule and summer, although very hot was, that was when we had to go. You know, I, I much would rather prefer, you know, to go somewhere in an off season than just, uh, you know, enjoy maybe less crowds and everything, but um, that that timing just worked better for us.
Speaker 2:So we went in June and we stayed there for the trip in total was around 26 days and it, uh, it started actually in Paris, which was totally unforeseen, but my dad, as a student, had gone there and really wanted to give my mom that experience, and you know, see it, and so it was a very costly, unexpected addition, but we're very happy we did it. So we started there and then we went to Venice and then I made sure everybody knew we're going to Verona, I'm not going to Italy and missing this opportunity. We're going to go there and talk to them into about a week there. So that was important to me because I know we were going to hit a lot of these touristy crowded, you know draining, you know days in these places and we wanted to kind of intentionally have a break or a pause, and so I knew it was going to be a little bit slower pace and we could maybe have that more authentic experience. So we spent a week there before going to Florence and then Rome, and it just worked out to do a day or two in london before we came home. So quite a, you know, a varied trip, but, um, we still pinch ourselves that we've gone.
Speaker 2:I love photography so I took tons of photos and you know I have on my, my desktop it'll just cycle through all the pictures and so you know it's one of those things we walk by and go oh, do you remember that? You?
Speaker 2:know or look at that and it's, it's, it's uh, very um, it just reinforces. You know that we've caught that bug and now we're just trying to trying to, you know, plan the next trip.
Speaker 1:So it was great, yeah yeah, I mean, we did too. The first time we went was like 25 years ago. My son was a year old and and uh, we just really, it was just really vacation. We spent a few days in rome and then just sorrento and we went to pompeii and a couple of things. So it was more of a just kind of you know, wind down kind of trip than actually, um, but the last two ancestor trips we did, so I I promised my wife this this time, if we go next year we're going to do the florence, venice, you know, pisa type of thing, but bring it to milan so she can look one hour at all the shops and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah nope, I, I get it. We walk that line. I. I'm very, very appreciative and thankful that my family can put up with my zeal, for you know the, the records and all that.
Speaker 1:So I mean it is, it is a fantastic. It is a fantastic place and, uh, you know, we hit, you know several hometowns, which is, just, like you know, an experience in and of itself, because that's when you really really kind of feel connected. Um, I have to ask you, you know, before we, before we finish the books behind, you, you have a great library of old books.
Speaker 2:What is that? Well, that's, that's just a picture.
Speaker 1:So you see my hand, it looks real yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I tried to make it, you know, look as decent as possible, but, um, no, I took this as one of I think one of your other guests did this, uh, where they put an image from a trip they had taken, and this was, you know, you try to prepare for something so big, as you know, going over to italy. I'm like I had all these records I'm taking all this time and I was still just riddled with anxiety over how am I going to, how am I going to get the most out of this. You know, it just felt like this. I hope not, but one opportunity that I'm going to be there in this place. I don't want to, I don't want to miss out.
Speaker 2:So, behind me, this is a parish in Via Franca and where my family, that's where they were for many years, and before I'd gone, I'd enlisted the help of two individuals. One was this, walter Santantino, and he's a researcher in northern Italy and his reputation precedes him. He's actually known in these areas, these smaller communes, and it ended up being just instrumental in our ability to access records. And so we visited three different parishes to track our family, starting with Pescatina. Visited three different parishes to track our family, you know, starting with Pescatina, cause that's the one I knew. And then, leading up to this, he was providing me these updates of what he was finding for the research we had, you know, contracted him for. So it led us into these different places. So, from Pescatina, most of the records ended up in Via Franco, which is 30 minutes away, you know, most of the records ended up in Villafranca, which is 30 minutes away, you know. So I knew I was going to try and go to those in person.
Speaker 2:And then my second great-grandmother, her family, is from Lanato del Garda, which is, you know, quite a ways west but drivable. So we made that journey and I got a chance to visit all three parishes, but had three very different experiences. And Tuscantina, we had this, this older woman, angela, she a little hunched over and she's got this, you know, cart with tea, or you know, and she's walking across the parking lot into the church offices and I, you know, I'm asking her when we came upon the you know the office, and telling her who I was. As best as I could, I don't speak Italian. I wish I did. I speak some Spanish, and so I joked that I was getting by with Spanglitalian everywhere I went, you know, just trying to weave together words in a way that is not correct but gets the message across in a way that is not correct but gets the message across. And I just remember her, you know she kind of obviously ruled, you know she kind of had the authority there and I'm trying to plead with her, you know, to see those records and they were quite strict in how they guarded them. But they did give me on paper what they looked up and they sent it to me, you know, later. So I never got to see them in person.
Speaker 2:In Villafranca they knew Walter, who had come by previously and I go down to the. He had told me where to go and I go to the office there, mentioned who I was, he knew he had been given some heads up, I was coming and he just goes here, you go, and he hands me the keys and I was left in this this is the room, the archivio and I was left in there and I was there for hours and I found so many records. You know it felt very frantic because I knew, okay, I want to get as much as I can while I'm here and I'm taking these pictures and I dealt with much of the cataloging later, you know, connecting in what the records were and everything, because I used primarily the indexes of the record sets I wanted. And then, lastly, we went to Lenato. And then, lastly, we went to Lanato and I was so disheartened because when we finally found this office in the basement of this church, I had mentioned what I was there for and they said absolutely not impossible. And I'm like, no, not impossible. I've come thousands of miles. You don't understand.
Speaker 2:Here I am and it was one of your other guests, the one actually, who had referred me, you know, regina Vigero. I had gotten in contact with her. She lives in Northern Italy and she assisted me and some of the best assistance she provided was I FaceTimed her and got lucky. She picks up and had this very lengthy discussion with the secretary and, after a lot of pain and, you know, convincing, we went through this very formal process 50 euros and got a certificate. You know that I was looking for, so, only one record there, you know, but it was, I mean, it was incredible the experience and, again, a lot of help that we needed, but it it led to coming home with, you know, a lot, of, a lot of things that we we got to add.
Speaker 1:And you know that's so funny because it's, it's true, every place is, you know, so different and there are no rules and regulations. You know, I was amazed, um, because our tour, our first tour, was set up by my friend laticia, and she does all these you know rooting tours and all of that. And, um, I was shocked when they they brought us into the um. We went into the archives in Naples and the first book that they showed us dated back, I don't know, probably to 1700s or something like that, and no gloves, no glass, none of that stuff, the guy's just leafing through it. But then they brought out, because my grandmother's family goes back, the Caracciolo family goes back to 950. And they brought out the first document from that family back to like 1100 and something and the same.
Speaker 2:I mean, he's just you know, no, you know in America they don't want you touching stuff that's 100 years old, never mind 1100 years old. Yeah, no,100 years old, yeah, no, they're spoiled. They have this kind of casual way of dealing with these items to them that have just always been there. You know, they're a part of, I think, their lives and, yeah, I wish that we had that richness, you know, in the documents and things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, in my mom, in the documents and things. Yeah, and you know my and my mom's hometown. When we went last year I met somebody there who's kind of like I don't think he works in the community but he was the police chief at one time, so he has got a lot of connections and everything. And we went in there and they had all the documents of my grandparents and great grandparents already photographed and you and you know all that kind of big. You know like triple the size and things like that. So it was really cool and you know I'm hoping to get the citizenship through that side and and they said you know sometimes you have problems with the and and they told me you're a son of torito, you, anything you need you get, you know.
Speaker 2:so yeah, well, I'll have to, I'll have to refer to you, you know, to see how that experience has gone and I have everything I need for dual citizenship.
Speaker 2:You know, we, we qualify through the, the right of blood. You know, my, my second grade grandfather didn't naturalize till the forties, and so you know, at the time that my great-grandfather was born, you know, he was not, he wasn't naturalized yet, and while we were there in Pescatina, one of the stops had to be the civil archives. So we went there and I could not have had again a more lucky experience with just getting a wonderful, nice secretary and she went back and no cost got me a certified birth record for my second great grandfather and his brother and sister, you know. So that was great. But the pathway to dual citizenship, as anybody knows who's looking into it, is challenging, to say, to put it lightly, you know, because we have it all. But you got to get the apostles, you got to get the translation, and then for us, the Los Angeles, you know, consulate is just good luck, good luck getting an appointment.
Speaker 1:Well, it's the same in New York and I'm too old to wait around. So I'm working through an attorney and the good part about doing what the attorney is and petitioning the court is he could do up to 10 people under one petition. So, for example, you know I don't know if you have any siblings, but if you and your siblings and your children wanted to do it all together, you know they could do it in one one petition to the court.
Speaker 1:You know it's a little more expensive, naturally yeah, it's a little bit more expensive but if you could do 10 people and everybody you know, throw some of it in. So you know I'm, I'm doing it mostly for the kids. My kids are still in their 20s. Um, yeah, but you know, with you, with your kids, I mean it's if they ever want to go to school there, it costs nothing.
Speaker 2:I have a cousin who's actually in college in Spain and he had asked me about dual citizenship because this would be my cousin through my nanny, my grandmother.
Speaker 2:So I told him, hey, I have a lot of these records that you don't need to go through the trouble you know finding. But then I imagine it might be varied in who you contract to, you know gain, that citizenship and the cost. Because what I found this past February is my first time going to RootTech in Salt Lake City Because I'm looking into doing this professionally. Now you know, I've had one client and you know building and some they're taking a lot of these professional courses, and I found this gentleman who I had spoken to about research and he does the dual citizenship and I said, hey, well, if I have everything, you know, I have it all you know. Like, what are you, what are we looking at? And the price is still pretty exorbitantly high. You know that, multiple thousands. And so I said, okay, well, does that include everybody? But then every, every, each one of my children was just so much more.
Speaker 1:So it got very um undoable for us pretty quick at this time yeah, I'll send you the, I'll send you the link to um, uh, arturo, um, because he, only he, if, if everybody's in the same line for like, for example, your children, it's. I think it was 500 euros for each kid or something, I mean it was very reasonable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was very reasonable. So, yeah, I'll send you the interview with him and then you know he does a free consultation, so you could call him at any time and, you know, talk to him about it. But we have almost everything. I'm just waiting for a couple of more pieces. I had to get an original of my divorce and my daughter's still waiting for her stuff and one thing with my mother. But I have all the translations done and the episteles done.
Speaker 1:And for me it's a little bit easy, because I only have to deal with me and my parents in English. Yeah, my grandparents are from there, so I don't have to go back any further than that. So you know, that's a little bit easier too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just adding up the cost for me on translations and the apostles alone, it gets high. But I'm willing to do it. You know, um again I, I anticipate we're going back again for sure, and I'd love to gift that to my, my children, to allow them whatever opportunities you know they may explore later.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, um yeah, well, like I said, I'll, I'll send you the, I'll send you the link to arturo and you know you check it out. At least you get a second opinion and a different price, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course, yeah, and I didn't get a chance to talk, but I know we're getting long, you know, and your time you probably account for. But one of the things that was so neat was this is seven or eight years before we went to Italy. As I mentioned, I love to cook, you know, and I don't know how I happened on this, but there was a place I found online called Trattoria Brucinante, you know, and I'm thinking what are the odds that we could be related to the restauranteurs? You know, and and everything, and it's a long shot, you know, but I reach out, you know, on Facebook I don't do social media for anything other than genealogy, so I don't really have a profile and thankfully, they responded and it's these two brothers, antonio and, uh, danielle, and they operate this wonderful restaurant, family operated and owned, and everything, and it just so happens to be in Via Franca, and so I'm, you know, I'm all thrilled about it and I'm.
Speaker 2:We make friends, you know, seven, seven years ago. You know, we're sending, I'm sending pictures of things I'm cooking, you know, during holidays and all that stuff to them, and very infrequently, but we'll FaceTime and everything, and they treat me like a cousin. You know, nothing's been proven and it's so far back, you know, but it's just. It's just a neat feeling and I told my wife, when we go there we've got to stop. We got it, we have to go there, and you know, and meet them in person. And we got to do that. So I've sent you some of the pictures there. But I've got standing next to Dan Yoni he's got this framed photo of portrait of his, his ancestors, you know, and I'm still working on trying to get that proof of relation. You know there's only a. There was only one or two, maximum three families with that name in that area and they're there at the same time. You know and go. What are the odds?
Speaker 2:So we're working on it, yeah things like that, those, those connections you make, um, those are exciting to me too. So well, my cousin from naples.
Speaker 1:I don't know how close you are to san diego, but my cousin from naples has a restaurant in san diego, so no, we're close.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we drive there so I'll have to send you to. I'll have to. I'll have to send you, uh, the it escapes me off the top of my so well. I'll have to send you to. I'll have to. I'll have to send you, uh, the. It escapes me off the top of my head. But I'll have to send you the, the name of the restaurant, uh, and he's, yeah, he's, he was born in. You know, him and his brother live in san diego now, and they're real italians. They were born in naples.
Speaker 2:So, oh, good, good it'll pass the uh, the high bar my family sets for all Italians, absolutely Like any Italian family, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, listen, joe, this has been a lot of fun. I appreciate the stories and taking the time, and it's great talking to you.
Speaker 2:Yes, anytime, and thank you for again the opportunity. My pleasure.
