Unraveling Heritage: The Journey of an Italian Family's Immigration to Australia

Join us on a captivating journey with our guest, Sarah Nielsen, as she unveils her family's rich Italian heritage and their migration to Australia post World War II. Sarah takes us back in time, sharing the challenges her grandfather faced as a young man in his early 20s, leaving Italy to build a new life Down Under. Discover the profound impact he made on the Italian community in Australia and the intriguing process of ancestral land ownership, as Sarah's great-grandfather carved out a new existence in a foreign land.

This episode takes an exciting twist as we delve into the complexities of cultural differences within Sarah's family. Be captivated by the contrasting experiences between her family and her father's Scottish influenced family, highlighting the journey of two distinct cultures intertwining in Australia. Enjoy heartwarming tales of her family's embrace of Italian culture, their unique reasons for moving to Australia, and the bittersweet emotions tied to visiting their ancestral Italian towns. 

We conclude this immersive journey with an exploration into the intriguing world of DNA and ancestry. Sarah shares her exhilarating discovery of a distant relative in America and the unraveling of her family's mysteries. The episode ends on a poignant note as she unravels the complex legacy of her great-grandfather, a man who despite his difficult nature, achieved his dream of securing land for his son. Prepare to be enthralled by the compelling journey of family history, immigration, and heritage.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:13

Hi, this is Bob Sartino, from Italian Roots and Genealogy. Be sure to check us out on our blog and YouTube and our great sponsors Yodoche Vita, Italy, Vuding and Abiettivo Casa. And today I have a guest from Australia. First Australian, Sarah Nielsen. So welcome, Sarah. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me, bob, so we have a big time difference. It's 5.30 AM here, and what time is it there?

Speaker 2: 0:44

9.30 PM.

Speaker 1: 0:48

Oh, my goodness, it's even more than I thought, and I guess we must be I don't know how many miles away 12,000, 10,000.

Speaker 2: 0:56

Oh my gosh a lot.

Speaker 1: 0:58

You know, I've been to the Orient, I've been to Hong Kong and I've been to Manila and I, but I've never made it to Australia. I used to work. I used to work for Chase, so maybe something like that. So when and why did you start researching your family?

Speaker 2: 1:21

I think I've always been interested. My grandfather being a, you know he immigrated to Australia when he was in his early 20s. He was always really interested. For us to be interested in the story and, surprisingly, whilst there's so many you know people who have Italian heritage in Australia and in Victoria, where I am, it was still very rare and it was something that was special to our family, particularly that my father's side is so Australian and then my mother's side was so Italian, so I suppose I think I'd always had a. Really I looked the most Italian in the family, so I think that was always something that drew me to the interest of it. I probably had a lot to do with my great uncle and auntie as well. Out of all of the grandchildren I probably had the most to do with them growing up, so I suppose you could say it was influence as well. That, I guess, sparks interest.

Speaker 1: 2:31

You know, that's funny that you mentioned that you look the most Italian, because you do look Italian, although Italians, you know, we look. We don't look like anybody and we look like everybody, if you know what I mean. Yes, so now. So you said your dad came in when he, or your grandfather came when he was in his 20s. So what year was that?

Speaker 2: 2:55

He arrived in, he flew into Darwin. He actually flew here in 1948.

Speaker 1: 3:04

Oh, so just after the war. So now we're there. I mean, you know, americans think a lot different, I'm sure, than Australians do about the immigration, because our big immigration was in the early 1900s and then they stopped for a while. So now was there a big influx of Italians to Australia after the war.

Speaker 2: 3:24

There was. There was, but my grandfather. He was quite early. His father had tried to get them here earlier but, as I've recently found out, first of all they were not. They application was in 1946. And Australia were not going to allow them to come until the peace treaty was signed with, you know, with, obviously with the king. So they the there was, my, interestingly, whilst it was my grandfather and his younger brother that came out first, aside from my great grandfather, it was his mother and his youngest brother that were approved first because she was a female, she was coming to be with her husband. That was, that was harmless. And his youngest brother was only 13 at the time of application, so again, harmless.

Speaker 2: 4:26

Whereas the three brothers, there was four brothers, there was four boys, and so the three brothers, in between, being they were adults, being the age they were, I suppose they, the Australians, probably looked at them as a risk, given that they just so recently been at war with their country, and and so they were held back. It was supposed to be, you know, the three brothers came together and the youngest would come with my great grandmother. But and this, this story, I have no proof of this story. This is hand me down. The shipping fair was booked for the three brothers, which fits to the documents I have got from Australia, but they missed the train from Malacuka in Calabria to get to Messina, to then get on the boat. And so my grandfather, my great grandfather, somehow from Australia, basically traded in the shipping fair for an airline ticket, but only for two of them. So my grandfather and his younger brother came and his older brother stayed, and then that's when they came out in 48.

Speaker 1: 5:40

Oh, that's. That's interesting, and I was going to say that would have been some boat ride.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Oh my gosh boat ride or plane ride, either of them don't. Yeah back then.

Speaker 1: 5:53

You know the, the the ship to America used to take, you know, a good trip. You know maybe would take 10 days, but you know sometimes they would take as long as three weeks.

Speaker 2: 6:03

So it was a month here. It took them a month to get here.

Speaker 1: 6:07

Wow, that's a long time, that's quite a long time and so so now that when they came, did they come in? You mentioned that there's a large community there, but was it a large community back then or was just starting to grow?

Speaker 2: 6:22

So there was, there was Italians that had already come here and it's it's funny you say that because I wanted part of my research has always, I've always been fascinated with what bought you here, like what bought them here and what did they come to. It would have been really frightening, particularly Australia, like you know to to. To sail into Ellis Island would be completely different to sailing to Hobsons Bay here in Victoria. You know, it was very little here. Even my great grandfather and he he puts it on his naturalization documents that he didn't like to have much to do with the Italian community which was interesting and the family. It's funny that I I saw that written in documents and yet my great aunt, who's who's still with us and remembers him, said you know, he never, ever wanted to to mix with the people, he never wanted to shop in the Italian shops and that was. You know, that was something they knew, that was a comfort of home and he never wanted to do that. He wanted to be, I guess, british from the moment he came here or chose to come here.

Speaker 2: 7:34

So when my grandfather and his brother arrived, they actually flew into Darwin.

Speaker 2: 7:40

They couldn't speak a word of English and my grandfather his photo is in the newspaper as that all they could say they were going to a place in Victoria called Port Campbell, which was where my great grandfather's farm was. But you know, the people, wherever they were in the airport I suppose, couldn't understand their accents and so they thought they were saying Port Kembla, which is not in Victoria. And so they're saying, oh, they need to get to Port Kembla. And he's, you know, there's a photo of my grandfather, like, looking through this book and and there was a lady that traveled with them, that they stayed in contact with. She was, she was from home as well, but they finally, they finally got there in the end, but even then like to fly in. You know, I mean, even I know now where we are. We're at the very southern tip of the country other than Tasmania. They flew into the very top. I can only imagine back then it was still, you know, a whole other journey again to get from where they were to where they needed to be.

Speaker 1: 8:46

Yeah, and it was probably a journey to get from, from Calabria to any place too, Because I mean, I know when I was there just last year in the car it was quite a journey, going up some of these mountains and places like that. So now, why did they choose Australia and not England, or America or South America?

Speaker 2: 9:09

It's. It's interesting because my great grandfather's brother went to Argentina. He went to Buenos Aires. So I always wondered why? Why here, you know, and there was a few families from the town that had come to Australia, who were already here, and I'd done a bit of research on how close, you know, finding things like how close were they to our family, where were they? What were their families doing? You know that might have been an influence. So all I can, all I can suggest there was there was a family that were quite close to them.

Speaker 2: 9:46

That is now, you know, amazingly, it's sort of, in my childhood, been a household name and to then date it back to to our immigration here, I believe it is that sort of people from the town that said no, no, we can get more for what we're looking for. They all seem to settle here and go to property. So you know, we don't really have anyone in the family that sort of settled and just sort of were city dwellers. There wasn't a lot of that. My, my grandmother's family, when they came out, you know, in the mid fifties, mid to late fifties, that was different. They, they lived in the city and stayed there, but not, no, when my great grandfather. The first time he came out was 1926. That was. It was for farming. That was their whole aim.

Speaker 1: 10:40

And so back then was Australia very open because in that you know, right after I think it was 1922, 23, something around there the United States put a very strict quota on Italians coming in. So it was now Australia, because Australia was obviously 50, 75, maybe even 100 years behind us and the immigration Was it open back then more for Italians, especially farmers, to come in.

Speaker 2: 11:34

It was. I guess the government were open to it because we were. So the country was so infant still and some people were quite welcoming. Even where he went it was a very, very small community. It's still a small community today, so it's interesting that he ended up there.

Speaker 2: 11:57

I've got a letter written to a he's a politician of some sort and it was during the war and it was a neighbour that had written it, sort of dobbing him in saying you know, there's this Italian who's got this land. This should be a soldier that has this land and Australian should have it, and he, you know, he's there by himself and he doesn't even, he doesn't even give anyone a job and it was really laying into him really. And it's interesting that I've got in touch with someone who's down there who remembers this man and he said, oh, his family will be mortified that he wrote this letter. I said, but but that was how they, I understand it, I understand why he wrote that they thought they were taking their jobs and taking their land, whereas then, written in his naturalization, a local policeman had given, you know, sort of a reference for him and he said look, not all the farmers like him in the area and he said and from what I can tell, it's because he runs his farm far better than they do, he works harder than they do, and that that's not a point to gloat on, it's a point of fact they did. They came here for a purpose, they came here to work really hard and everything they worked hard for they wanted to make the most of. So I think whilst the country was open to him being here, he got a really great plot of land. He put in a lease for it. He basically had to promise what he was going to do to the land. On that initial application of crown land. He had to clear it, he had to fence it. I think they gave him an allowance for a wire fencing there was. He had to build his own hut and on his application he this was in the mid 30s, so 1934 he filled this out.

Speaker 2: 13:48

So he'd just come back from a trip in Italy where he, you know, his fourth son had been born. He came back and he completely falsified the application. He said he was single, he lied about his age, he said he had no children. And it was interesting because I went when I found this document, you know, particularly for, like my mother. That was a really difficult thing to read, to sort of say why did he lie, why did he deny that he had? Was he running away from them?

Speaker 2: 14:18

And I spoke to a wonderful lady who runs the Italian Museum here in Melbourne and she said they did what they had to to survive. You have to remember they'd come all this way. That's what they were going to do. They were going to do whatever it took. They didn't care what they were filling out and I suppose I understand that. You know it was just a piece of paper. He didn't care, he just wanted that land and his neighbor so he was Lebanese, his neighbor and his grandson I've spoken to and he said we always wanted to know how he got that land, we always wanted to know how he won that. And I said well, he lied, that's how he got it. I said your grandfather was honest, mine wasn't.

Speaker 1: 15:05

And so for the Americans listening, what exactly is crown land?

Speaker 2: 15:10

So crown land well, it's land that was. It was owned by the British. I mean, they founded the country so they considered themselves the owners of it and what they would do is they would sell off plots and you know what are you going to do with it. And it's amazing, they had to write these, these scripts on why they would be great for it and what experience do they have? I suppose it was like a job interview and you know he said oh, you know, my mother ran a vineyard in Italy and I ran that you know, and it's funny, it's like yes, your mother, your mother, inherited, along with five or six other families, like most Italians, you know, a small vineyard that probably supplied your own wine and maybe to sell a tiny bit within the village and maybe some olive trees on it as well.

Speaker 2: 16:05

I wouldn't say that was a 450 acre farm, dairy farm like you were signing on to, but it was. You know, even his neighbor, the Lebanese neighbor. He said, oh, my grandfather had written on there that I'm an expert dairy farmer. He said he might have milked a goat as a child, perhaps, and he said that was the closest he came, but but that was, yeah, that was what they had to prove to the crown.

Speaker 2: 16:36

So you know, government representatives, that you know that they should be. So they were least the land for an amount of time and they just kept paying it until it was usually after about 10 years, sometimes more they were they to prove that it was six years. He had to prove what he'd done, so that's six years to really get it happening. And then by six years they would, they would be told, ok, yes, you can continue, and I think it wasn't until the mid fifties that he actually then they signed it over and said, yep, you now own this, it's now yours. So it was. You know it was a good 20 years of just paying the government for this farm.

Speaker 1: 17:14

Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. I mean, we had programs like that here in I don't know, the 1820s, 1830s, you know, I guess it was, you know, similar. They were trying to go west and build out and you could, you could get your lease land and then eventually own it. Or in some cases, I think they, they may have even given it away just to get back. They may have even given it away just to get people out there. But then, yes, you know, you had to deal with the Indians and everything.

Speaker 1: 17:42

Absolutely yes it wasn't a simple life. So now you know, have you? What interesting things have you found out about the family you know back in Italy, if anything?

Speaker 2: 17:59

So one of the most interesting things I found out, particularly about him, I've always been fascinated with my great-grandfather because we share a birthday. So for me growing up that was a really big deal. It was always said to me oh my gosh, you share the birthday with your great-grandfather. You're so lucky, you know. One of the things I found out about him was that I was lucky enough to inherit a lot of documents from my great-uncle when he passed away. So in those documents were things that it is unimaginable that they bought these handwritten documents all the way from Italy to Australia, stored them I mean, they're in pretty good condition for what they are and what they've travelled. Some of them are, you know, sort of deeds to land, agreements or arrangements over land. A lot of it has had to take a lot of translation, which is difficult, being being Calabrian and from Melanchocat. It's a lot of it's written in dialect, so when you do try and translate it it's all over the place. So you've sort of got to start to put together what you're reading and I guess it teaches you to recognise different words and what they partner with. So we found out that obviously my great-grandfather had to do national service when he was 18, like most men in Italy, and I've got a photo that his brother had put together. So when his brother, pasquale, moved to Buenos Aires, he took a photo of himself and a photo of my great-grandfather and he merged them together and it says you know the two brothers, pasquale in Buenos Aires and Antonio. Now, antonio at this stage was still in Italy, so that's obviously where he's sent it to, and Antonio is in a military uniform. And I always just looked at this photo and thought, oh, it's just, you know, he's in his national service. But then, the more I looked into the dates and I thought no, he's, you know, he's 24. In this photo he's actually married. And then I've got another certificate that is the insurance for someone, for a soldier. So I went to a woman who she's fluent Italian, she can sort of decipher all this stuff, she's quite an expert, and she don't know. She said, yeah, your great-grandfather was obviously in the military, that's his insurance. And I said, well, this is a photo of him. You know where? Can I find any more information? What does the uniform look like? And she said, oh, that's definitely a black shirt, and that I mean for our family.

Speaker 2: 20:42

That was something I still remember my mother's message to me no, she just said no. And I said no, very yes, very yes, and she said no. I said but that's that's what they were brought up with, that's what they believe to be correct, that was their. You know. That was what their world looked like in their country and I've always sort of wondered was it, was it something to do with that that he wanted to leave there? Was it that? You know?

Speaker 2: 21:12

I said to my great-aunt we were always told that they were peasants. You know, the family were really poor and my great-aunt it's funny how, as they get older, they tell you how it really was she said they weren't poor. So they weren't poor at all, they owned land. They were essentially what we would, we would call here middle class. And she said no, it was a choice.

Speaker 2: 21:38

So that's always intrigued me and interested me that you know, he chose, he made this choice to leave. His father had passed away. I believe his mother had died somewhere around the early 20s, so perhaps he had no one other than his wife, you know. But still, at the same time, I guess I'm removed enough in generations and I can. You know, I love research so I can look at it a little bit more objectively, but that he left a wife and children, yes, to go and build this life. I mean, before his children came out he was here 21 or 22 years, which is a really long time, a really long time to be. You've missed everything with with the upbringing of your children. You missed everything. So these boys arrived in Australia and he had no idea how to be a father and they really had no idea how to be sons. So it was certainly an interesting adjustment for them as well.

Speaker 1: 22:43

I bet, yeah, that's that's. That's quite a story and that's really something that you, that they preserved all those documents.

Speaker 2: 22:51

Oh, yes, yes, there's quite a even, even down to things. Like you know, I've got the well, it comes up as translation like a tax bot, but I assume it's like paying your rates. So he was still paying for this land all these years between him and his sister. They were, they were paying the rates on these properties. I've got a lot of letters. Deciphering them is really challenging, so it's. It's trying to read the handwriting and then trying to translate the handwriting and going through.

Speaker 2: 23:24

He was constantly asking people and getting people in Malakukar to try and check up on on. You know, what I can only assume is the vineyard and the grove and the property. And he's writing to these people and it's can you, can you check on this? And they're writing, it's the letters back saying you know, we've, we've tried to look at, look for the, what you're asking for, and we can't search anymore. And I feel like he was constantly sort of keeping a tab on what was going on there, but I never, really I never haven't at this stage got to the sort of the, the crux of why.

Speaker 1: 24:03

Yeah, yeah, well, I guess maybe just wanted to keep his, his hand and things. Yeah, and I learned from one of my cousins, my fourth cousin, that that she had, that her uncle apparently had a lot of stuff, but when he died it all disappeared.

Speaker 2: 24:21

Yes.

Speaker 1: 24:21

Which, which you know, it which kills me, because they were all like my, my, my grandmother's family were all. They were all property owners. And you know, on some of their birth and death certificates that just says some. Some say property owners, some just say rich person. So you know they were like she was from two noble families, so they were like extremely well off, but now have you been able to get back yet?

Speaker 2: 24:48

No yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:50

I was afraid of that. Well you, you got plenty of time to go back.

Speaker 2: 24:54

Well, my, my mom and my dad have been and my sister has been, which is amazing, and my aunt was there recently, which she said, you know, the family home. It was just fascinating the way it and they did they. They honestly just packed it up, locked it up and left.

Speaker 2: 25:14

And my uncle, my great uncle. He went back in 1968 and he bought some things back with him but even then that was more because my grandmother, my great grandmother, was the one who was left there. It was more items of hers and I feel like a lot of the photos that I've got perhaps he bought back with him on that trip. You know, these are, these are some incredibly old photos and it's and it's fun going through it there's so many and and to go through them and make contact with people and say, do you recognize it? Does anyone recognize this person? Does anyone know who this might be? Some of them, I'm lucky enough they've written a name or a last name on the back. But yeah to, I guess, to try and retrace where they were.

Speaker 2: 26:05

My grandfather never wanted to go back, he had no interest whatsoever. Once he came to Australia, he, he used to have a saying to us kids, obviously, who were born here, and he used to say I'm more Australian than any of you. And I remember in my teenage years I said to him I said you're not. You're not because you were born there and I'm born here and my father's Australian. He said I don't care. He said I'm more Australian than you. I said tell me how you figure that. And he said because I chose this country, you didn't. And it makes sense. You know the first thing they couldn't wait to buy Holden's when they got out here, which I don't know how many Americans know. That's a very quintessential Australian thing.

Speaker 2: 26:50

And yet my great grandfather, one of his pride and joys I think it was about a year before he died, he knows how long it was on the wait list, but he imported a Chevy Impala to Australia and this, this guy who's who's still alive and he said to me he goes. Oh, he said I was about 14 when your great grandfather bought that thing back. And he said you know, farming roads were very quiet and he said we could hear this rumble of this engine. He said my brother and I were like what is that noise? And he said all of a sudden he said this thing is slowing down and getting loud, and near the top of our driveway and we've looked down our driveway and this massive, massive V8's just coming down our driveway and he said and there was your great grandfather with the biggest grin on his face behind the steering wheel.

Speaker 2: 27:46

And that was his. But he'd done like and I don't know if it's the same for you the businesses there, the farmers all had their name on the door of their trucks and he put the name on the door of his Chevy Impala. So he's sort of just still gone with the with the farmers rule. But but yeah, it was. That was something that I found so interesting still that he, he spoiled himself a little bit with something well a lot actually, but with something you know then he just loved it's what he wanted.

Speaker 1: 28:20

That's so funny and you know, when you go back to some of these small towns, you know you mentioned that they just left everything there on. We were in in Fasado and Montabello there were whole streets of you know flats or you know apartments, whatever, where people just I mean, there's still furniture in there, there's still everything in there, and this, you know, they told me that they were owned by people maybe in Germany or France or even America or other places, and it's amazing just to see that. It's amazing and sad in a way. And we we were able to go into my third great grandparents, palazzo and Fasado, and it was really bittersweet because the current owner you know it's it's he owns the property and he's built a like a regular house and there's some other houses around it, but he let us in so you could still see what it once was.

Speaker 1: 29:27

Yes, but he had no desire to fix it and and the, the, the town wanted to buy it and refurbish it and he doesn't want to sell it. So it's kind of sad, you know, when you see that.

Speaker 2: 29:39

Oh, absolutely, and it's. That's one thing everyone who's been to Melaka car has said. We're so upset that we can't just go inside the house and see what's there. And I mean, I know, I, I do believe that my great uncle would have taken anything that was a value in terms of that he knew would mean something to us one day. But even the smallest things can can be valuable and it's.

Speaker 2: 30:08

I know that one of the brothers went back in the seventies trying to look. I think they all four brothers grieved the loss of their mother and father differently. I think they grieved it probably separately as well, and so they were all still trying to sort of find themselves. He went back and people tried to help him. I don't really know what he was looking for, you know, probably just some sort of comfort in it all. But interestingly, everyone who's been even my sister, who is, who is so not ever been really super moved by this sort of stuff. She said, just being there it's. It's amazing how you feel like you're somewhere of comfort and and like you're meant to be there. You know it's, it's very, it's a very interesting feeling.

Speaker 1: 31:00

Yeah, no, that's there's, there's no question about that. And you know, I've said this before I, I know people who go to Italy and they, you know, I asked them are you going to go back to the hometown? And they, they say no, I don't know anybody at all. You know there's nobody there, there's nobody left. And I said, yeah, but you, you don't know until you get there and you don't know the feeling, and that's, you know, that's the homecoming to me, anyway, at least that's the way I felt. And there's so many amazing stories where people are just walking down the street and they'll say you look like somebody you know, or you'll, you'll remember a photograph and you find out that this person's a relative you know. Yes, yes, it's, it's really, really something. So now, so I have to ask you now about your dad's family. When did they get to Australia?

Speaker 2: 31:52

Why? Oh so my dad's the Australian side, or? My grandmother's family, the Australian side.

Speaker 1: 31:59

The Australian side, yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:02

They. So my dad's father's side they were, I think they were early 1800s, and my grandmother's side they were actually only just sort of late 1880s, all of them, so a little bit later, some from Scotland, some little bit of Irish in there, but mostly Scottish or from Cornwall around that area, so it was. It was such a difference in culture in terms of everything. Even my mum. The story she tells about you know first as she uses the term I don't know if this is a term there, it's one that's very daggy here, but going round with my dad, that's what she would call it and when they were, when they were first together, my dad's family was still sort of extremely Scottish influenced and they thought you're dating an Italian girl, what you know, and she's Catholic as well.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Yeah, and extra.

Speaker 2: 33:13

Yeah, an additional. And my mum said she still remembers my dad's grandfather ringing every night. And he'd ring it and he'd say what are you feeding him tonight, dear? And she'd say I'm making pasta tonight. And she said he just got me. Every time I was saying pasta, she said I didn't cook pasta every night, but it was just. And he'd say what are you cooking him pasta for? You need to give him a steak, that's what he needs. And she said they must have just thought that's all we. That's all we ate, just pasta. But it was interesting, the crossing cultures and even just I still remember as a child them learning about that, that culture. I mean, our family has all embraced it a lot. You know my generation, my mum's generation, my uncle married another sort of Italian, second generation Italian. So that was interesting. Again, they were from a different part of Italy, but all three girls. So my mum and her two sisters all married Australian men.

Speaker 1: 34:19

Yeah, you know, in my mum's family my mum's family everybody married an Italian, except for my mum's youngest brother, and she was actually Scottish, believe it or not. And my father's family, his older brother, married a woman who was actually I don't know what her nationality was, but she was Protestant. So I'm sure when he got married in the 1920s that must have been a huge deal for my grandparents to deal with. But yeah, that's so interesting. So now was it your dad's father's family that came in the early 1800s. Do you know why they came?

Speaker 2: 35:07

I'm not sure We've got a family book, but interestingly they came from a part of Scotland that I don't imagine. They I don't believe they were poor. I think they were okay. It was something people were doing. It was this promise of a better life out here Again. They were all landowners. They came out here and got significant, you know significantly large pieces of land. Their children ended up sort of living in a city and that sort of thing. But their heritage was interesting.

Speaker 2: 35:47

From Scotland there was no sort of evident prompt that you could say bought them out here. But a lot of them came at once and they're, I mean, doing their family history is fascinating because there's so many of them and then throw into a mix that some of them changed the last name slightly. So then you've got this whole other arm of the family that you sort of didn't even know was there. But yes, there was no major prompt. Some of the English more so. It was probably poverty and that's what I've noticed, that's what I've noticed from them. And when they did come out here they worked really hard. They did well for themselves, but mainly the Scottish. It's quite interesting that they you know whether there was sort of almost, you know I know they were all part of clans and following that on. You know we all watch Outlander and think it's amazing and think is it really a thing? But I guess it does tell a historical tale where some of those things and influence into their decision to come here when the opportunity arose.

Speaker 1: 37:02

Yeah, and that's a great show. We really enjoyed that show. We lived in England for two years in the 90s so we got to go. We went to Aberdeen they had these like corporate games or something like that but we we had just taken a drive through the countryside and it was really amazing because you know every, I don't know every few miles you'd see this like little miniature type of castle thing, like it was basically just three rooms but three rooms on top of each other. But you could see it was like sort of like a fortress. But as we were driving along it looked out to the left and I saw what looked like this but like Cinderella type castle, and I said to my wife, I said we have to see what that is on the way back.

Speaker 1: 37:48

So on the way back we saw the sign and it was Balmoral and and we, you know, you could you know that was actually open. They had the Queen wasn't there, so they they were allowed to go into like two rooms or something like that. If she's there you can't, you can't go in. But it was really amazing because it was this long road with just these giant pine trees and you could smell the pine trees and then when you got there, you could actually walk down to and I'm sure everybody's seen the photo of either the Queen and the Prince by that stream, you know, and so you could actually go by, stand by that stream where they stand. It was really. It was, you know, it was really, really an amazing place to see because it really truly looks like Cinderella's Castle. Yes, it was really special and I have a photo. I'll have to put it up there when I talk about it, oh wow.

Speaker 2: 38:50

It's um, that, that side of it. I really it intrigues me why they came here, things, things that drew them here, because one of them so on my grandmother's side, it turns out after much research they were actually an adopted relation, but they were an influential part regardless, because they brought up my great grandmother and he actually her grandfather came out here because he was a evangelist. He had fallen on hard times living in England, he lost his wife and he ended up, you know, he he listened to, um, to Charles Spurgeon, and actually became quite heavily involved with that revival movement. And they said look, we're, you know people. He lost his voice due to the trauma. There's an article written about it. And he lost his voice due to the trauma.

Speaker 2: 39:52

And they said do you know what we're? We're sending people to, to this place called Australia, and we think you should go there, the um, the climate will work better for your, for your voice box and you're. And he said, okay, I'll try it. So he took his four children out there and um, and arrived here in the late 1800s and, I mean, came to, he came to Victoria, came to Paran, which was, I mean, not very nice back then, but that was, that was where all the evangelists were. That's they. They wanted to get you know to the people that really needed help and that's how they ended up coming out here and I just find that you know these they were really well educated children and and be just because their father sort of, I guess, lapsed into um his own sort of crisis, they ended up in a place that I can't imagine, coming from somewhere like England to what Australia would have been then. It would have been just such a stark contrast to what they knew.

Speaker 1: 40:53

Yeah, yeah, and you know, and you know when you, when you think about that, uh, you know it's a, it's a huge place, like you know the United States is and uh, like I said, you know the people who pushed West in the, you know, late 1700s, early 1800s it's hard to imagine what it was like you, just really can't imagine.

Speaker 2: 41:16

No, absolutely Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 41:19

And uh, you know, it's fate where we are, because of fate when you think about it, right Um?

Speaker 2: 41:25

that's right. That's right and it's interesting. I? Um recently I connected with someone? Um, through ancestry, through my DNA. There was a few matches and I must say it's really difficult when you've done your DNA and you've and you've got one side that is Italian. It is because our records are not what everyone else's are. Um, I mean, I'm so fortunate. I've got a lot of documents that have probably helped me along the way. I've got a lot of stories. You know, my grandfather liked to tell stories. I've got photos. It's so much more than a lot of people have.

Speaker 2: 41:59

But I connected with a woman who is also in um in America, and I said to her you know this, this name features in your trees. I'm just wondering what the connection is. And this was through my grandfather's mother's side of the family and she knew very little. We just had similar, the same great, great grandfather name. The mother's name was similar enough, um, that you know, we could see it was the same person, but just lots lost in translation. Her name's Margarita, but someone had written Margarita. You know neither here nor there, but she had.

Speaker 2: 42:41

We pieced it together and her great grandfather is the brother, the older brother, of my great grandmother and she didn't even know that she existed. And she said we had no, and we had no idea that she'd gone to Australia. And I said, well, your great grandfather was so much older and he went to America, you know so much earlier she was, she was still a girl and and off he went. And it's funny then, all these little names. And she said, well, what about this person? He went back to see this person and I said, yes, that's, you know, and I guess we pieced it all together. There's still a few little mysteries we need to sort out, but it's amazing to connect with people that you would never have even known were part of your family at all.

Speaker 2: 43:31

And she's, I mean, I consider it, I mean I deal with people that are, you know, 10 times removed and I still consider them a cousin, um, she's, she's so closely related, um, and it's, and, and that side of it I I just find so fascinating. I've still got sort of things here that I said you know, this is, this is your great great uncle that wrote this letter as well, so it's to be enjoyed by you as much as it is by us. Um, which I, that side of it I just find so fascinating, just one. I could never imagine.

Speaker 2: 44:02

I mean, my sister and I live we're not overly close, but we live 10 minutes apart. We will at least speak once a week and she's looking at moving at the moment half an hour from me and that's been such a big discussion point. She's going to live half an hour away from me. I think they lived literally on opposite sides of the world and in a time where you couldn't just write them an email, you could barely even write them a letter guaranteeing it would get there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 44:33

And, uh, you know, bugs, bugs me. The Italians, you know the Italians in Italy don't think they're going to be able to write them an email. You know, the Italians in Italy don't do DNA, very, very few, so it's very hard to piece that together. But, um, you know I, you know, I knew, I knew who my grandmother's father's family was, and I had a couple of documents. Uh, you're going back.

Speaker 1: 44:57

I was lucky enough to be able to find my great grandfather and his father and um, but my cousin over there, she, um, because the family was originally from Spain, she thought she was going to find people either in Spain or in South America. Uh, she never had any idea that there was anybody in America and in fact, only my grandmother and her aunt came to America. Uh, so she was quite surprised. And when we found each other, I mean, she just had so much information and she's in Italy, obviously so, um, it's a lot easier to find out. But she's the one who was able to find all of these, these homes, uh, of which, at last count, I think there was six or seven that my third great grandfather or grandparents had, because, because of their stature, um, but you know, I tell people to the same thing.

Speaker 1: 45:52

You go out on Facebook, go to the town see if there's something in the town, or go to the commune, or just, you know, go to my blog, because a lot of people are finding each other there. I never thought it was going to get to where it is. There's almost there's over 11,000 people in that group now, but people are finding each other there. Yes, that's just so. You know, that makes me feel good. That was the whole reason in doing this in the first place to help people find each other.

Speaker 2: 46:24

It's such a lovely and it's when I got all of these photos and we're part of a group that it's a group on Facebook in Melanchocart, you know and I started sharing all these photos one night. I just said I'll just put these up and just see if anyone knows, and the I guess, the joy that it brought to some of these older people looking that knew all these faces and, interestingly enough, my in my great grandfather's things. He has a little book that is. It's written in Italian. It's a tiny little book. I imagine it's something he bought out here it's about. My auntie has said to me. She said it's written about the king, like it's. The Italian king is in there. And I said okay, so it's maybe a book that he bought out at that time or where they gifted it. But in the, in the front and in the back it's printed it's someone else's name. And I said did he steal this book from someone Because it's not his? And she said oh no, we know that family. I don't know. Maybe, maybe they lent it to him and this last name is there's a little boy that my son goes to school with who's got this last name and his mom it's his father that's Italian, but his mom she's Scottish. Well, she from born in New Zealand, now in Australia, but her family's Scottish and she loves family history.

Speaker 2: 47:54

And I said to her how funny is this that I've got this book? That was my great grandfather's son. It's got Lupino written in it. And she said that is amazing. You've got to let's find out who it is, you know. And so I asked my great aunt and she said, oh yeah, we knew the Lupinos there. You know, there's a lot of them around. There's a lot. And we've managed, like we did so much work on this and we found that at one stage my great grandfather stayed with a family member that is Lupino. That, we believe, is that the book belonged to. We think it was lent to him then. But we found out that this little boy's grandfather, who's still alive, lives in the next suburb to me. He was friends with my grandparents when they came to Australia and they all knew each other.

Speaker 2: 48:41

Because I said to her I said where in Italy is your husband's family from? She said, oh, it's a very little town. You probably don't know. It's in Calabria, it's a tiny town. And I said, oh, no, you know, so is my family. She said, oh, it's called Melakukar I got to be joking and it's her mother-in-law now. She said, when I show her the photos that you've got, and she's looking at all these faces and Melakukar, it's just, it brings them back to life, to I know that person and this is who this is and that's where that's taken. And she said that the joy that it brings them and puts another spark into them, and even you know my great aunt and my grandmother who'll say, oh yeah, that person, they lived here and it's like they're talking about something last week which I love, that. I love that it, you know, if it can add a little bit of something to everyone, it's, you know, it's your job done. Sorry, as I'm concerned.

Speaker 1: 49:36

Yeah, I mean, we have a great person over here that I interviewed, Kate Kelly, and she's called a photo angel. She goes to antique places and secondhand places and she looks for photos or documents with people's names on it that have names on it, and then she finds the family and sends the photos to them.

Speaker 2: 50:01

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 50:02

It's just such a wonderful thing.

Speaker 1: 50:04

Yeah, I mean, and she I mean she's a teacher, she's a school teacher, but she probably spends as much time doing this as she does does teaching, and it's. It's just phenomenal that she does this. You know, and so you know, family may get photos of their great grandparents or great great grandparents, wow, that they had never seen before. In some cases there's books and all kinds of different things. It's just really super. I have a photograph that my mother used to tell me was my paternal grandmother's brother, but the name on the back says Paolo Tonitoni, and so he's not, he's not my grandmother's brother. That much I know. And I see that name in some of the as witnesses in some of the you know birth and death records, but I can't figure out who this guy is. He's in a military uniform, an officer's uniform, so he had stature, but I can't find this guy out. That's like my biggest roadblock now is trying to figure out who this guy is.

Speaker 2: 51:16

Yes, I think we all, we all get one of those. And I, my uncle and aunt or great uncle and auntie, have this huge picture of this man. It's always hung in the entryway of their home for as long as I can remember. It's enormous, it's like a poster size of this man and he's, you know, standing up very straight and he's posing and he's in a suit. He looks to me like he's a groom, he's got the flower on his lapel and I don't know why I've never asked who he was, maybe because as a child, the picture perhaps, you know, scared me a little bit, you know, because he's staring at you and it's black and white. And I said to my auntie, I said, you know who is that man? And she said, oh, that was your great-grandmothers, that was, that was Nonna's, nonna's brother. And I said which brother, you know? And she said, oh, he went to America. He played in a band or something you know like. He played the clarinet or something like that. And she said, and he went to Chicago and one night he was hit by a train and it was sort of this really tragic story always. And I thought what was his name? Oh, his name was Pascal. I thought that's funny because that was my great-grandfather's brother's name. And you know, you sort of start to think, oh, do they get, are they getting all the stories mixed up? And I, and so Every time, every couple of months, I would ask her again who's that man?

Speaker 2: 52:48

Again, what did you say about that man in the photo? Well, I think he's. He's not his brother. And I said but where did the picture come from? Oh, your uncle got that printed in Palmy when we went there and he bought it back and on the back of it it's not, it's, it's printed here in Melbourne. And I, well, it's framed here in Melbourne. She said no, no, he got it framed there. And I thought you're mixing, and even the photo.

Speaker 2: 53:09

I ended up cutting the back because I couldn't help myself. I cut the back open she doesn't know it's cut open to try and see if there was anything on it. And I can see that it's old, it's, it's older than 1968, which is when they went to Palmy. And I thought, no, this. And she said he, he bought it back from the house when we went there in 1968. And I said this would have been an incredibly expensive photo to develop at the time. It's and it's it's age suggests it was printed later.

Speaker 2: 53:40

And I said are you sure? Who do you think this is? She goes no, his name's Vinchenzo. And I thought I knew that you didn't really know what his name was, vinchenzo. We've found it, but, and so I said to that's the cousin in America that I said to her I said I actually think this is your great grandfather on his wedding day. And I said I can't be sure and I will keep finding as much information. And we've got an older picture of him and I feel like it could be the same person, but there is nothing written on the back. There is no additional photos of him anywhere in the whole collection that I have. And I just said to her I said we have to find his marriage certificate. She said I'm worried that it's in Italy. I'm worried he got married in Italy. I said oh gosh, that will be an even bigger needle in the haystack. He got married there. The finding documents from Italy is just. It's a. It's a real. I founded a real challenge.

Speaker 1: 54:39

Yeah, no, yeah, it is, it is. You know you do get lucky, but it is, it is tough, you know we. I never knew that my father had living first cousins in Torridale, greco, until we got there last year.

Speaker 1: 54:56

Nobody, ever, nobody ever talked, nobody ever mentioned it, and it was only my father's, I guess he's he's. I have first cousin. I was actually younger than me. That's a long story, but my grandmother's youngest brother, his two daughters, are still alive. They're both in their nineties and when we got to their house they had my parents' wedding photo that my grandmother had sent in 1944. Oh my gosh, and and when my you know, obviously my grandmother's handwriting on the back, and I had, no, I had no idea that these people existed. Oh, wow, you know, and that's why I tell people you have to, you can't go, just go to Roman Florence, you know.

Speaker 1: 55:46

No, no, that's right, that's right, it's great, but that's not. That's not where you feel connected. You feel connected when you go to these smaller places.

Speaker 2: 55:57

You know when you go to the heart you, you absolutely do. And even the people, the people I've met searching for information, the people that helped me, that are the most unlikely people that you think would ever, particularly with the Italian side. There's so many people that are generations like my parents, you know, who sort of say no, these stories have to continue to be told, or perhaps they have. You know, other European, you know they're a descendant of someone else, european, and they and they see the value in it. But finding people to help you, you know, with these little steps, with just just little things, to find different people, I've found it. You know I love how many people I've connected with and thankfully I've got my mum's cousin, the eldest cousin, so he remembers quite fondly his grandparents. So he's I've. He said to me you know, what do you want to ask me? I said, right, I'm writing you a list of questions. You've got to fill the survey out. So he's in the midst of filling out all these questions. I said some of them are going to be really challenging and he said no, he said I'm ready for them. I'm ready for all of them, you know, because there's so many family tales that you hear about and different stories of things and even as a child, things I was told about. You know, my, my great-grandfather was apparently a very difficult man. That's how my, my great-aunt she says he was impossible. He was impossible and he fought with his sons a lot. But then, you know, I also see things that he did. I mean they would never know. I went to the Victorian archives and there was an application in the mid-50s that he'd written to the council and said look, when there's some, there's a pine forest there that I know is going to be decommissioned. When, when it is, can you let me know? I want to buy this block here and the reason I want to buy it is because I want my son to build a farm there, and that's something you know.

Speaker 2: 58:05

He and his son fought and fought. He did. He did own a farm in the. They worked together. I've got log books that I mean for me. They're funny to read now. It's where they've written each other's wages. And then another one of them's crossed it out and said no, he didn't milk that many cows, he milked this many. And then someone else has crossed it out again and I think I mean that's priceless to me, that's. You know you could. You could never, ever replace that, but you know he did really care, he did. He did care about his kids and he did care about his grandchildren. He just he'd lived on a farm on his own for so long. He had absolutely no comprehension of how to show it. He's it wasn't even Wunderlust he was looking for. He had a goal in mind and he achieved it, and you know that I'm immensely proud of.

Speaker 1: 59:01

Yeah, well, like you know, that's, that's probably the most important thing is to be able to do that, and you know they were. You know things are different back then too, but well, this has been absolutely fascinating. I'm so thrilled to have somebody Australian I'll say it again over time the scent, because I've been on the search for so long. So because it's you know, it's a whole different perspective. And the fact that you found an American cousin is even even yes, yes, no, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 59:34

Thank you so much, it's been an absolute pleasure.